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LKN Speed
06-22-2009, 02:21 PM
story time fellas, pull up a chair LOL
At least a thousand times, I have been asked by customers- "why cant I run the stock springs with my new cam? my dad/uncle/buddy did it and it was fine!" After being active in another thread on here concerning springs, I do know MOST of you are aware of the importance of the proper spring...but for the rest of you guys, heres the WHY........
"I have stock springs and my valves arent floating"........yes they are!!!!
lets skip the whole part about retainer to guide issues, coil bind, etc....
this one is about spring pressures!
wayyyy back in the day, when I was learning the basics, I swapped springs on my 66 olds (396BBC) to the recommended spring for my cam, but knew nothing about 'installed height'............ the engine lost a ton of power above 4000rpms, but NO valve float until 6000rpms, and at 6200 it straightened out and would spin to 6500 easily. When I called the cam company, they asked what my installed height was............... whats that?
In basic terms:
A valvespring has a spring 'rate' which determines how much pressure you have at open versus closed and cannot be altered. It also will say "XX# @XX height" lets say 125# at 1.75 installed height. this is with your spring at rest, valve on seat, closed, and is changed by using shims. If this is the spring you need for your cam, but your installed height is 1.85, guess what? youre now 30lbs too light on the seat, which also means youre at least 30lbs (probably more) light 'over the nose' (at full lift on your cam) HELLO valve bounce, hello valve float!!!!
this is exactly what was wrong on the olds.....I needed 125# on the seat and 325 open, and had 80# on the seat and about 250 open.
again- there was NO noticeable valve float until 6000rpms, but the engine was very 'flat' from 4000rpms-up. Shimming until I was at 125# on the seat gave me 3mph and .2 at the track!!!! experimenting on the dyno at the new shop, I have seen 500-600rpms more rpms, and 25+hp by correcting spring pressures only! Its a balancing act..too light and you have problems, too much and you have parasitic drag and/or destroyed cam lobes and lifters!!!
On a very mild cammed engine, you might be ok with stock springs, but anything more, and if you want to see anything over 5500rpms, a spring change and installed height setting is a MUST if you want your engine to scream! Dont just drop those new springs in- at minimum, check your installed heights on one intake and one exhaust, and shim correctly-- if you REALLY want to do it right, have every spring checked (they will have a 5-10lb variation) and match accordingly! Unless your heads have been machined to make every spring pocket, valve seat and retainer match, you will have a slight difference in installed heights from valve to valve. Match the weaker spring to the shorter height, stronger spring to taller height, and shim accordingly. After some running, your springs will lose a good 10% pressure, and not always evenly, but setting them up correctly will give you the best chance of keeping things 'liveable', unless you enjoy changing springs every 5k-10k miles or less.............
there you have it! Hope you guys enjoyed this, and to those who already knew these things, im sorry to have wasted your time:lol1:

midnight stang
06-22-2009, 05:19 PM
Thanks alot that was very informative and to the point. feel free to share anytime, knowledge is power :thumbsup1:

cammincoupe
06-22-2009, 05:33 PM
now thats some great info.... already knew a good bit of that, but for anybody who doesnt know this stuff and is having valve float problems i think you may have just made things clear for some people :thumbsup1:.

puttputt
06-22-2009, 06:21 PM
Thanks alot for the info.:thumbsup1:

ToplessMarrine
06-22-2009, 07:28 PM
wow!!! I completely understand what my engine shop friend was explaining a month ago to me when I was getting my heads from him and he told me that he already adjusted my recommended valve spring pressure.... So that means I should be good (RIGHT??) I think so, cause if what you're saying is true which I believe it is, then thats one reason why I feel so much difference from 3500 to 5500rpm now (RIGHT??).... Awesome!!! I feel a bit more at ease about my build.:thumbsup1::pray:

Mustang Leo
06-22-2009, 08:53 PM
LOve the tech articles. Helps us all know more than what to a job, but the why also. Wish you were closer to the upstate.

Leo

slvr90foxGT
06-23-2009, 01:21 AM
wow :sad1: That was alot to take in. I think when I do my springs and my cam ill def look for a pro to help make the adjustment. My head hurts just thinking about all this lol. Thanks alot for the heads up

rsw007
02-28-2010, 09:03 AM
to add to this just for everyones info i tested a e7-gt40"93cobra" and the trickflow spring.

e7 = 55lbs at 1.750
gt40 = 100lbs at 1.750
trickflow = 124lbs at 1.800

rich5150
02-01-2011, 08:26 AM
Very good info here. Thanks for posting this.

stu11926
02-01-2011, 11:37 AM
I'd like to hear your opinion about the new beehive style valve springs. That's what I'm using from Comp Cams. What worries me is that their catalog gives one part number for the cam I'm using, but when I opened the camshaft box, the cam card gave another part number...AFTER I had already gone through the long, drawn out process of installing and shimming all of the springs. I was PISSED. Things seem to be running fine though and valves don't appear to be floating.

LKN Speed
02-01-2011, 12:57 PM
I'd like to hear your opinion about the new beehive style valve springs. That's what I'm using from Comp Cams. What worries me is that their catalog gives one part number for the cam I'm using, but when I opened the camshaft box, the cam card gave another part number...AFTER I had already gone through the long, drawn out process of installing and shimming all of the springs. I was PISSED. Things seem to be running fine though and valves don't appear to be floating.

PM me some spring part #s and Ill take a look. youre probably fine, especially if its a hyd. roller.

beehives are GREAT! smaller retainer, lighter weight, less harmonics, you can run a bit less spring pressure and still get a lot of rpms. More and more coming out all the time, even for high winding big blocks, etc....
Its a matter of opinion, but I still shy away from them on a radical/race type application for one reason.....IF you happen to break a spring, theres no inner spring, damper, etc... that might keep your valve from dropping into the cylinder, which is never a good thing.

stu11926
02-01-2011, 04:21 PM
The camshaft is a Comp Cams XFI-236HR-14. It has .579" lift. Duration @.006 is 286° on the intake and 300° on the exhaust and 114° lobe separation.

http://www.compcams.com/Company/CC/cam-specs/Details.aspx?csid=1068&sb=0

The Comp Cams catalog calls for either 986 valve springs (regular dual spring type) or 26986-16 (which are the valve springs I purchased based on the catalog information). I'm basing this off of their 2010 catalog. (Just checked...the info didn't change for 2011).
The relevent information is on pages 80-81.
http://www.compcams.com/catalog/COMP2011/pdf/COMP_Catalog_2011_82.pdf
http://www.compcams.com/catalog/COMP2011/pdf/COMP_Catalog_2011_83.pdf

Here's the link for 26986 valve springs: http://www.compperformancegroupstores.com/store/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=CC&Product_Code=26986-16&Category_Code=

And here is the link for the 26120 valve spring my cam card calls for: http://www.compperformancegroupstores.com/store/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=CC&Product_Code=26120-16&Category_Code=

I called tech support at Comp before running the motor. They told me it would be fine. I'm still not overly comfortable beating on it, but they head (GT40Y) don't make power past 5700 rpm anyway. I decided to go with it until I get new heads. The operator that dynoed my car said the valves didnt' seem to be floating at 6k rpm.

What's your opinion?

LKN Speed
02-02-2011, 09:41 AM
my master ref. guide calls for the same thing as your catalog....28986s, pretty much across the board for the 5.0 hyd. rollers. Comp. specializes in valvetrain and i would trust them to know what will and will not work, but personally, I dont think the 26986s have nearly enough seat OR nose pressure to work well with a cam that size. The 26120s look better, but maybe a bit on the high side. You should be fine, but I wouldnt wind it to the moon or miss too many gears lol.

stu11926
02-02-2011, 11:28 AM
You should be fine, but I wouldnt wind it to the moon or miss too many gears lol.

That was pretty much my thought as well. With the dyno showing power falling off at 5700 rpm, I have a 6k pill in my MSD and my Quarterhorse program is set with a 6000 rpm rev limit as well. I'll put better heads on the motor some day, but it's just not a priority. I may be making more power than I need for a road course as it is. I hope to find out before the end of this year.